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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 22:45:00 EST
From: "John E. Campbell" <spectrum@IAG.NET>
Subject: Whoa! Cubs out of control!
Hey Folks!
Something happened tonight that caught me completely off guard. I guess it
would be prudent to let you in on the history of our den to complete the
picture. As some of you may remember the previous DL was rather lacking in
commitment and didn't procure a meeting place. The first 4 meetings were
held outside in a local park and were not structured at all, very little was
accomplished. Just before we swapped ADL & DL positions he managed to find
us a temporary meeting place above a local bowling alley. The 3 meetings at
the alley went just fine.
We finally attained a permanent meeting place from our sponsor, the local
elementary school. The first meeting there was tonight in the cafeteria. It
seemed as though the second they entered the cafeteria it was yell, scream,
run and just plain play time. Quite frankly I was flabbergasted at the
change. It seemed the second they lost interest or weren't being directly
talked to it was back to play time. The ol' conduct candle didn't burn very
long tonight.
Has anyone else experience such a metamorphosis?? Has anyone found that some
locations work better than others for meetings? Our previous meeting place
was much smaller room, maybe 12' by 20', this place is easily 30' by 50'.
I'm hoping it is due mostly to the change and that things will settle down.
Any advise, prodding or sympathic story will be greatly appreciated.
YiS
From: John E. Campbell
EMail: spectrum@iag.net
Den Leader / Assistant Cub Master
Pack 608, Central Florida Council
Oviedo, Florida
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 03:25:40 -0500
From: "Michael F. Bowman" <mfbowman@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Whoa! Cubs out of control!
John Campbell,
Meeting locations really have a lot to do with how young boys act, its
almost like behavioral conditioning. The larger the room the greater the
urge to take advantage of it for running and noisemaking, especially if
it is a school cafeteria or gym where they are used to unrestrained
expression. The best bet is to take advantage of the site for gathering
activities to burn off energy with lots of physical activity that is
organized and fun. For your meeting there are several options depending
on what you have available from your chartering organization:
* Move the meeting to a library or study room that is smaller. Libraries
seem to instill quiet - behavioral conditioning?
* Move some tables around in the cafeteria to form a physical barrier;
e.g. in a square with a single opening behind you.
* Find a dead-end hallway or a corner in a hall that creates barriers on
two or three sides and put the Cubs in that area with your back to the
rest of the hall.
* Move the meeting place to a parent's home, if one has a rec-room.
* Find a nearby Church that will let you use a small room.
Above all plan the meetings with plenty of activity and make it fun. If
they are engaged with fun, it is easier to keep some sort of order.
Second rule is to realize that they have a lot of energy that has been
pent up all day at school, which means that patience is a virtue for the
leaders - there are just going to be some days. :-)
Speaking only for myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman
DDC-Training, GW Dist. Nat Capital Area Council mfbowman@CAPACCESS.ORG
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 01:17:12 -0600
From: "Settummanque, the blackeagle (Mike Walton)"
Subject: Re: Whoa! Cubs out of control!
At 10:45 PM 11/9/95 EST, you wrote:
>We finally attained a permanent meeting place from our sponsor, the local
>elementary school. The first meeting there was tonight in the cafeteria. It
>seemed as though the second they entered the cafeteria it was yell, scream,
>run and just plain play time. Quite frankly I was flabbergasted at the
>change. It seemed the second they lost interest or weren't being directly
>talked to it was back to play time. The ol' conduct candle didn't burn very
>long tonight.
You had it right...it has to do with where the meeting was. Remember that most
kids associate the cafeteria/gym area as "Yea! Area", and that could explain
the lack of control.
The best way I've found to "pull the reins" on situations like that, would
be to use another room and let them "gather" at the cafeteria (to wear them
down) and
then to hold the actual meeting in another place (the library ALWAYS works
wonders...as soon as they get in there, its like all of sudden, their voices
drop down and they're whispering...adults too, for some reason...funny how
we get so used to what we've been imprinted with as youth!
Hope this helps out!
Settummanque!
(MAJ) Mike L. Walton (Settummanque, the blackeagle) (
also via Blackeagle Services BlkEagleS@AOL.COM
"Ask about Geoworks, Leaders' Online & visiting your place to talk
Scouting!!"
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 19:43:13 -0500
From: Gene Soares <GRS5@AOL.COM>
Subject: Boy needs help......please read.
Fellow Scouters,
I am a new Wolf Den Leader currently working with a fine group of boys.
However, I have one boy in my group who just seems to get more and more
uncooperative with each passing meeting. Some background; parents are
divorced and Dad lives in another state. He is as disruptive in school as he
is in Scouts. I practice extreme patience with this boy and it seems that the
more patient I am with him the worse his behavior gets. He seems to WANT me
to get angry, which I dont.....(externally!)
Favorite quotes include " I QUIT!", "BORING!!", "They started
it" I could go
on but I think you get the idea.
We had an episode this past meeting (which prompted this post) where the
group was playing a team game, he became upset because he didn't get the ball
as much as he would have liked so, he quit and sat off to the side. I decided
maybe thats the best place for him right now and continued with the activity.
Well, this really got him going and he bolted from the yard. I had to chase
this boy and physically direct him back to the house, and once there he
wheeled on me and punched me right in the stomach! Before I could recover he
was off again! (my neckerchief did some flapping that night!) Now, I'm sure
that a few years down the road this is all going to be quite humorous, but
that cant diminish the concern I have for this kid now.
I guess what I'm asking is if anyone here has had similar problems and if so,
please, any advice would be most appreciated. I have called the Mother
already and she has agreed to come to meetings until he settles down. Yet, it
still seems that this problem runs deeper than I have been able to convey
here. He needs some kind of breakthrough and I know he can benefit from this
program. I spend most of my time at meetings with him, but that takes away
from the group.
So, I put it to you my friends. With all the experience gathered here in this
group, I'm sure your advise can help turn this boy around. Feel free to
answer here or you may e-mail me privately at GRS5@aol.com
Thanks for listening,
Gene Soares
Den Leader - Pack 1514
Chantilly, Virginia
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 08:31:36 -0500
From: Stephen Allan Mintz <samintz@INFOCOMM.NET>
Subject: Re: Boy needs help......please read.
Gene:
This is one of the scouts that will need your help and one that will
always remember you. He will be the hardest one to reach and the most
difficult to follow. Do not blame yourself if he quits for real.
Some advice. I have had several scouts in similar behavior patterns.
They all need to have more attension. Can you give him a job more than
the other boys. He will respond to anything positively. I used to
shout hello to one boy as he walked into the cafeteria even though it
was 100 feet. After a few times, I could just wave. I found that he
was always looking for that. Even now, at district events, I hear a
shout from 200 yards away. Behavior improved immediately. When we
needed some equipment moved it was " " could you do me a favor and
help with the ...". On the other side of the coin, you can not let
him get away with any misbehavior. I used to short circuit the
misbehavior - admonishment cycle. I complemented him on many of the
items, good behavior, crafts, etc. before he misbehaved. This gave him
the attension and reduced the bad behavior. I also added the
complements to ALL the other scouts.
One of the boys that had this type of problem is now an Assistant
Scoutmaster, and an EAGLE Scout. (And I have made the difference in
the life of a boy).
I hope this is of some help.
Yours In Scouting,
Stephen Allan Mintz I used to be an Eagle ...
Scoutmaster T198 NE VI-16 NE VI-36 NE CS-51
Arrowhead Training Team
Baltimore Area Council
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 02:10:44 -0500
From: "Michael F. Bowman" <mfbowman@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Boy needs help......please read.
Gene,
It sure sounds like your Cub Scout is crying for attention, while acting
out his resentment, anger, and frustration regarding the divorce of his
parents. I tend to agree with the thoughts of Whit and Stephen. For
this boy, Scouting may make all the difference. But it is also a very
difficult situation. You also have several other Cubs that need your
attention too.
Getting the custodial parent to attend meetings with him is a step in the
right direction, but one that you'll have to watch. I had a parent come
with one Cub to Den Meetings and the Cub acted even worse. If so you may
need to evaluate what it will take to continue to have him at meetings.
Could another parent be recruited as a second Assistant Den Leader to
make sure the rest of the Cubs get a good program, while you work with
this one? Is the behavior improving or manageable? Is this a situation
where the parent needs to seek professional help?
Our hearts go out to kids like this, because we can see the tremendous
need and because we know that if they drop out, things are probably not
going to get better for the child. If you can work it through, you may be
able to really make a difference. Rewarding good behavior, praising, and
giving plenty of attention are good approaches to short-circuiting the
pattern leading to his undesirable episodes. This takes time and
patience.
If you find that you are not able to handle the situation or that it is
getting worse, you should remember that you have a responsibility to the
other Cubs too. This may be particularly true, if this Cub takes out his
aggression on them. While you may be able to handle physical aggression
directed at you, the Cub cannot be allowed to do the same towards the
other Cubs. You may also have to decide whether it is beyond your
capacity to continue to try to help. You are there primarily to see that
all of the Cubs have a good program.
I wish you luck as you explore the alternatives and continue to evaluate
at each step.
Speaking Only for Myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman
a/k/a Professor Beaver (WB), ASTA #2566, OA Vigil Honor '71, Eagle
Scout '67, Serving as Deputy District Commissioner for Training,
G.W.Dist., Nat. Capital Area Council, BSA - mfbowman@capaccess.org
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 19:49:38 -0600
From: "Settummanque, the blackeagle (MAJ) Mike Walton"
Subject: Re: Boy needs help......please read.
Sounds like my youngest son, Aaron. Aaron has had some time dealing with the
divorce and marriage. Somehow he feels, like all
boys his age, that if he misbehaves to a certain point, his father and
mother will both come and get him and everything will be fine once again. It
is a very hot button with me, because of the way
I feel that his mother and I treated the entire situation. 'nuff said.
>He seems to WANT me to get angry, which I dont.....(externally!)
>Favorite quotes include " I QUIT!", "BORING!!", "They started
it"
>I could go on but I think you get the idea.
I do. Believe me, I do. There's a lot of "I don't have to do
that" in there too, I'm sure.
>We had an episode this past meeting (which prompted this post)
>where the group was playing a team game, he became upset because
>he didn't get the ball as much as he would have liked so, he quit
>and sat off to the side. I decided maybe thats the best place for
>him right now and continued with the activity.
You did exactly what I would have done, which doesn't make Aaron
happy with me at all.
>Well, this really got him going and he bolted from the yard. I
>had to chase this boy and physically direct him back to the
>house, and once there he wheeled on me and punched me right in
>the stomach! Before I could recover he was off again! (my
>neckerchief did some flapping that night!) Now, I'm sure that a
>few years down the road this is all going to be quite humorous,
>but that can't diminish the concern I have for this kid now.
Anytime an adult gets hit by a child for protecting him is a matter of
concern. This is when you get ahold of his mother,
explain the situation and calmly but firmly state --in his prescence --that
if he cannot be controlled, that perhaps she needs to attend to insure his
safety or he needs to find another activity for him to participate.
That's a HARD thing to say to any parent, and I've had to say it
to Aaron's mother because Jessiann and I were unable to control
him without "damaging the goods". We later learned that Aaron
was on behavior-modification medication, but it was not with him
when he visited, therefore he felt way out of control. Talk with
that parent and insure that he's not (or should be) on some sort
of behavior-modification medication.
>He needs some kind of breakthrough and I know he can benefit from
>this program.
He needs a male-relation figure in his life. Aaron benefits from
his mother's finance, whom also has a younger male child. Unfortunately,
this comes after Aaron's transfer from a traditional school environment to a
behavior-controlled school miles away from home. Hopefully, with a
combination of medication, behavior modification, and a new environment with a
male-relation figure present most of the time, Aaron will once again feel
that things will be alright.
Settummanque!
(MAJ) Mike L. Walton (Settummanque, the blackeagle) (
co-Owner, Blackeagle Servics of Kentucky
"Geoworks & Leaders' Online--because EVERY PC can open doors!!!"
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 09:29:58 CST
From: Barry C Runnels <Barry_C_Runnels@MMACMAIL.JCCBI.GOV>
Subject: Non-participation
Hi Vicki, sounds like you are doing all the right things. The phone
tree, news letter and permission slips. I have learned to get parents
interest in your program the boys have to be interested. If the
program is not interesting to them, they don't go home telling their
parents what a great time they had at the meeting or outing. If the
reward of the badge itself is not enough, the activity to get the
badge must be changed to excite them to get active. Start asking other
Packs what activities they have that the Scouts really like. Ask
Scout-L for new ideas. If they don't like program as it is, change it
for them because no matter how hard you try, if its not fun, they will
have little interest.
In our Pack, I rate the program by the Scouts attendance to each
activity. If the attendance is low, we sit down and change it. We try
to make every activity fun. Our Pack even does the Scouting for Food
different from the District to add more fun.
Give the parents the news letter, call them and tell them where and
what time to meet, if they don't show up, you did your best and they
don't get a badge. You can't hold their hands for every activity
because they won't get anything out of that and you will burn out. Use
your valuble energy in to improve the program. If the boys have no
interest, do what your doing now, ask for new ideas.
By the way, for your fulture as Cub Master, don't give up the news
letter. Information can be a big problem in Packs and news letters and
Committee Meeting minutes help that problem.
You sound like you really care and are trying hard, keep trying the
new ideas so you don't burn out, the boys really need you.
Good luck
Barry Runnels
Cub Master "Mighty" Pack 339
Edmond Oklahoma
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 05:36:45 -0400
From: "Stephanie P. Colosi" <Patrice541@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Non-participation
Hi I will be in the Baltimore area in 2 weeks! I am currently a den leader
for pack 22 at the Daniel Boone Council. Saquo District in Asheville NC,
roundtable staff, and powwow book editor. One thing we have tried is using
beads as a reward. We went out and got yellow lacing and blue beads to use.
A boy earns a bead at every den meeting for 1) being present 2) dues 3)
uniform 4) book. They earn "special" beads for activities. Being at pack
meetings, going to special events... The boys wear their bead necklaces with
their uniforms. They are always trying to fill up the necklace because they
get a super special surprise when they do!
We too are a small pack and have found that newsletters and phone calls are
necessary to get the parents involved. Also, we try to get as many parents
as possible to take basic leader training! When they find out how much fun
we have at roundtable and training sessions they stay involved! (We earn
beads and wear them too)
Yours in Scouting!
Stephanie P. Colosi
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 15:29:25 -0500
From: "Gilbert C. Birgel" <birgel@GULF.NET>
Subject: Re: Non-participation
>One thing we have tried is using beads as a reward.
>A boy earns a bead at every den meeting for 1) being present 2) dues 3)
>uniform 4) book. They earn "special" beads for activities. Being at pack
>meetings, going to special events... The boys wear their bead necklaces with
>their uniforms.
We use beads in this same way. I don't think it really is the reason for
improved participation though. Don't get me wrong, the boys love getting the
beads, especially when I give out the "special" beads for the special
activities.
The largest problem our pack has for non-participation is when the boys are
involved in their sports. I personally try to call the family once in a
while and keep in touch by sending calendar of events in the mail. (The
parents tell me that it really excites the boys to get mail addressed to
them.) More than once I have had parents want to pull the boys out of
scouting because the were missing the meetings due to the sports. I have
always encouraged the boys to continue participating in the activities they
are interested in and insure they get the belt loop, letter, pin, etc.,
whatever applies, as the recognition for their participation. The sports
seasons are short, scout season is all year long, so I think we get them the
majority of the year. Especially in the summer when all the other activities
seem to stop and they have nothing much to do except maybe attend various
summer camps.
Is this the wrong way to look at it, should I be pushing attending the scout
functions harder? So far I've only had one boy drop to keep up with his
swimming. The rest of the boys have been with me for wolfs, bears and now
going on into WEBELOS.
Patty Birgel
Den Leader
Pack 626
Pensacola, FL
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:11:15 -0500
From: MR HENRY MOWRY <HenryMowry@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject: Non-participation
Non-participation is the #1 challenge facing almost everyone in
Scouting. You can lead a horse to water....
If people don't want to participate, they won't. Don't concern
yourself as much with that as figuring out what the DO want to
participate in. Do a survey ... find out what weekends are good,
which are bad. Maybe they would do a conservation project, but only
if it's 20 minutes from home. Maybe they aren't interested in doing
anything in May due to conflicts.
The "reservation fee" idea is interesting ... but it's an artificial
construct that would probably anger people that you're trying to get
a commitment from. If your Pack is incurring a cancellation fee,
fine, but if you're just trying to ensure a crowd at an event, I
think the fee would be very unpopular. Ultimately, finding a way to
lead the program in an interesting, popular way will result in a very
successful program.
YIS,
Henry Mowry
CM & WL, P575, Santa Clarita, CA
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 02:32:32 -0400
From: "Michael F. Bowman" <mfbowman@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Non-participation
Vicki,
Be careful about charging a refundable registration fee for parents that
show up at an activity. If you do, there are going to be some folks that
will happily pay the $5.00 fee and not show figuring it is cheaper than a
babysitter. It is almost like an invitation to those parents to not
participate.
This is a topic that comes up from time to time, so let me share a
previous posting I made on the topic (which can also be found at the U.S.
Scouting Service Project Site - http://www.usscouts.org/).
Although it was written with a Troop in mind, it is also applicable to a
Pack.
PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT - COMMUNICATING COMMITMENT
HOW? How do you get parental involvement in a Scout unit? While their
are many things that could be offered on the subject, one thing that
stands out in my experience is "communicating the commitment."
IMPERSONAL & BLIND LUCK? Too often when everyone is busy we resort to
newsletters, letters of welcome to a Troop, and requests for help in
meetings hoping that everyone will catch on to what is needed and jump
right in. If the unit is lucky and some of the parents are experienced
in Scouting or oriented towards participation anyway all goes well and
nobody figures out that the communication effort wasn't all that
successful.
THE AUDIENCE: However, there are many units where this is not enough.
Parents are both working, some Scouts only have a single parent, there
has been a divorce, the family has just moved and is new to the area,
their is a health problem, the parents are newly arrived from another
country, the parents are shy and uncertain, or you find other
challenges. In these cases parental involvement starts to sound like a
dream and really will challenge a leader to the max.
A BETTER WAY: What seems to work best is a one-to-one face-to-face
session with the new parent(s) over a cup of coffee. Face-to-face it is
harder to say no and easier for you to answer specific concerns and find
unique ways for each parent to help according to their time and talents.
SUGGESTIONS: From among those who are participating; e.g. the
Scoutmaster and active committee members, divide up the parents you wish
to target and:
Make an appointment to stop by at their home or a local place
that serves soft drinks and coffee. Ask for about an hour of time and
make sure you keep things moving.
Spend about five minutes really selling the Troop. Show what the
Troop has done. Explain how the Scouts really grow. Talk about
advancement for a minute or so. Talk about the really great activities
that the Patrol Leader's Council is planning.
Ask how the parent's son is doing. How do they feel about Scouting?
Do they have questions? Things they'd like to know?
What are their hobbies? What special skills do they have? (Do
your personnel resources inventory on the spot without paper in sight,
while getting to know the parent.)
Talk to them about parental committment and how important it is to
make sure their son has a good Scouting experience - hit home. Yes they
will have a hundred reasons why they are busy. But remind them that by
pooling talents with all the other parents it is a lot easier to make
sure all the boys have a lot more great opportunities than if only the
parent was trying to do it all alone. You do want the best for your
son? You want to see him grow and stay out of trouble?
As you begin to learn about the Scout and the parent, ask leading
questions about how they could help in a particular activity - something
where they can get their feet wet and enjoy a successful experience. The
key here is starting them small.
Start them out by just asking them to drive one way on a trip,
helping set up an activity nearby, or helping counsel a merit badge once
or twice with another counselor, but not in a lead position until they
have confidence. You probably know of at least a dozen small things that
could use a helping hand. Pick one that fits the parent, where they
can't hardly go wrong.
Immediately recognize their success and help!! Present drivers
with a small matchbox type car with a Scouting decal on the top or
something simple to say thanks or some simple homemade recognition
appropriate to the task. Give a set of red and green cloths pins to
somebody who has helped dry out tents, a varnished mounted pancake to
somebody that helped with the pancake breakfast, etc. You get the idea.
Now that you have the hook set, reel 'em in a little close with
another more difficult assignment and again recognize what they do.
All along the way communicate the committment by explaining, seselling
the program, and asking for personal help.
DON'BE DISCOURAGED: Some of these people will move on before you get
them very involved and you can't do much about it. But there will be
some that will get the fever and jump right in.
REMEMBER TO ASK INDIVIDUALS TO VOLUNTEER: I always find that there are
at least three parents out of a dozen that would love to help, if only
asked. They don't volunteer for cultural reasons (for example, in
Hispanic families it may be considered rude to assert qualification for
leadership roles, but your invitation would be more than welcome),
because of shyness, because they are not sure they can do it, etc. But
once asked, these parents bloom and become the best of Scout leaders. So
ask!
Speaking Only for Myself in the Scouting Spirit, Michael F. Bowman
a/k/a Professor Beaver (WB), ASTA #2566, OA Vigil Honor '71, Eagle
Scout '67, Serving as Deputy District Commissioner for Training,
G.W.Dist., Nat. Capital Area Council, BSA - mfbowman@capaccess.org
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 21:56:22 -0700
From: Alan Houser <troop24@EMF.NET>
Subject: Re: Non-participation
Vicki Shiff <vshiff@SPRYNET.COM> wrote:
>1. assessing a "registration fee" of $5.00 which is refunded to the
family when
>they show up or forfeited into Pack funds if they don't show. We would send
>home a signoff sheet at the beginning of the year to make sure this is
>understood.
I doubt this would have any real impact. Some will leave, others will just
let it slide.
>2. all of our field trips are "family" activities, so each parent/family
>accompanies their son. We don't require permission slips since the parents are
>right there. We have considered having permission slip/type forms go home with
>a tear off portion to be returned with a "reservation". We did try this for
one
>activity, with little success.
One time is not much of a test.
>3. We have tried a phone tree for reminding and confirming with each family.
>Frankly, this would not work with a larger pack than ours, and we are hoping for
>a good recruitment in the fall. Also, the parents who volunteer to call are
>getting tired of having to do this.
When our troop was small and impoverished, we asked each family to provide
us with a set of stamped, self-addressed envelopes, enough for a monthly
mailing. It works for larger units as well if your treasury can't handle
the postage. It's a good way to remind folks of what's coming up that
needs their attention, and it has a better chance of getting home and on
the refrigerator than if hand-carried by the Scout (of any age).
>We already send out a newsletter on the den and pack level with a short newsy
>page, and an activity calendar. This takes a lot of time to produce, and I
>wonder if most families even look at it.
In our house, it has to go directly from the mailbox to the refrigerator, or
it disappears until the weekend after the event. Sometimes it disappears on
the refrigerator (wonder why my compass never works correctly in the kitchen?)
but that's another story....
The situation you describe is not untypical for a lot of units, especially
small ones where a few people make things happen. I would suggest a
different approach. Use the carrot instead of the stick.
Have a number of activities planned for the Scouts that are really exciting.
Make sure that there is something visible and tangible that will result from
attending, a patch for example. Find some local hikes that will permit your
Scouts to earn a patch or medal. If there aren't any, you can buy some
spiffy patches from the Patch Place (PO Box 2648, Chino CA 91708 - call
909-947-3023 for their catalog) for less than $1 apiece for all kinds of
activities.
Require that folks sign up in advance for them, then award the patches for
participating at the next pack meeting. When the kids from the non-
participating families start seeing other folks get all these neat patches
and other stuff, they will want to get more involved and will make sure
their parents get them there. When the parents are there seeing their
kids having fun, they will become more involved too.
The secret is (actually, it's no secret) make the program so much fun that
no one wants to miss out. Works much better that way. There are no large
packs or troops out there with boring programs.
Alan R. Houser ** Scoutmaster, Berkeley Troop 24 ** troop24@emf.net
** WWW page ** http://www.emf.net/~troop24/t24.html **
Last edited: February 22, 2004
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